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	<title>Comments on: Representations of uncomputable and uncountable sets</title>
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	<link>http://math.andrej.com/2008/02/06/representations-of-uncomputable-and-uncountable-sets/</link>
	<description>Mathematics for computers</description>
	<lastBuildDate>Mon, 30 Jan 2012 07:14:48 +0000</lastBuildDate>
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		<title>By: Andrej Bauer</title>
		<link>http://math.andrej.com/2008/02/06/representations-of-uncomputable-and-uncountable-sets/comment-page-1/#comment-18751</link>
		<dc:creator>Andrej Bauer</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 20 Jan 2012 17:42:24 +0000</pubDate>
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		<description>@Charles: I reiterate; I did not presume &lt;strong&gt;anything&lt;/strong&gt; about computability or existence of infinite binary streams of our universe when I said &quot;computers can represent all infinite binary streams of our universe&quot;. Also, because the proof that there are uncountably many infinite binary streams is constructive, it works no matter what we assume about computability of infinite binary streams.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>@Charles: I reiterate; I did not presume <strong>anything</strong> about computability or existence of infinite binary streams of our universe when I said &#8220;computers can represent all infinite binary streams of our universe&#8221;. Also, because the proof that there are uncountably many infinite binary streams is constructive, it works no matter what we assume about computability of infinite binary streams.</p>
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		<title>By: Charles Stewart</title>
		<link>http://math.andrej.com/2008/02/06/representations-of-uncomputable-and-uncountable-sets/comment-page-1/#comment-18582</link>
		<dc:creator>Charles Stewart</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 03 Jan 2012 10:15:56 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://math.andrej.com/2008/02/06/representations-of-uncomputable-and-uncountable-sets/#comment-18582</guid>
		<description>andrej&gt; The assumption “computers can represent all infinite binary streams of our universe” does not presume anything about existence of such streams.

Well, you are quite right to call Steven in on his inference, but this does presuppose (since here we no doubt presuppose Church--Turing) that infinite streams are at least recursive, which is a nontrivial claim.  Consider the incompatible claim that there are infinite streams in nature, but that these all are nondeterministic.  It does seem to me to be defensible.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>andrej&gt; The assumption “computers can represent all infinite binary streams of our universe” does not presume anything about existence of such streams.</p>
<p>Well, you are quite right to call Steven in on his inference, but this does presuppose (since here we no doubt presuppose Church&#8211;Turing) that infinite streams are at least recursive, which is a nontrivial claim.  Consider the incompatible claim that there are infinite streams in nature, but that these all are nondeterministic.  It does seem to me to be defensible.</p>
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		<title>By: Andrej Bauer</title>
		<link>http://math.andrej.com/2008/02/06/representations-of-uncomputable-and-uncountable-sets/comment-page-1/#comment-18417</link>
		<dc:creator>Andrej Bauer</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 21 Dec 2011 21:32:22 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://math.andrej.com/2008/02/06/representations-of-uncomputable-and-uncountable-sets/#comment-18417</guid>
		<description>@Steven: The assumption &quot;computers can represent all infinite binary streams of our universe&quot; does &lt;i&gt;not&lt;/i&gt; presume anything about existence of such streams. So I do not see why your remark is relevant at all. Moreover, I think that discussions of the kind &quot;Is there an infinite stream in our universe?&quot; are a bit pointless unless the concepts involved are very well defined, otherwise one can always defend his position by saying &quot;that depends on what you mean by &#039;is&#039;&quot;.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>@Steven: The assumption &#8220;computers can represent all infinite binary streams of our universe&#8221; does <i>not</i> presume anything about existence of such streams. So I do not see why your remark is relevant at all. Moreover, I think that discussions of the kind &#8220;Is there an infinite stream in our universe?&#8221; are a bit pointless unless the concepts involved are very well defined, otherwise one can always defend his position by saying &#8220;that depends on what you mean by &#8216;is&#8217;&#8221;.</p>
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		<title>By: Steven Elliott</title>
		<link>http://math.andrej.com/2008/02/06/representations-of-uncomputable-and-uncountable-sets/comment-page-1/#comment-18416</link>
		<dc:creator>Steven Elliott</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 21 Dec 2011 18:39:34 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://math.andrej.com/2008/02/06/representations-of-uncomputable-and-uncountable-sets/#comment-18416</guid>
		<description>&quot;let us then say that computers can represent all infinite binary streams of our universe&quot;

You forgot to mention that it is also a matter of faith whether or not there exists Infinite binary streams in our universe. I&#039;m pretty sure there are none, and all binary streams are finite.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>&#8220;let us then say that computers can represent all infinite binary streams of our universe&#8221;</p>
<p>You forgot to mention that it is also a matter of faith whether or not there exists Infinite binary streams in our universe. I&#8217;m pretty sure there are none, and all binary streams are finite.</p>
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		<title>By: Andrej Bauer</title>
		<link>http://math.andrej.com/2008/02/06/representations-of-uncomputable-and-uncountable-sets/comment-page-1/#comment-6380</link>
		<dc:creator>Andrej Bauer</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 02 Mar 2008 00:46:33 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://math.andrej.com/2008/02/06/representations-of-uncomputable-and-uncountable-sets/#comment-6380</guid>
		<description>Kaveh: it is meaningless to communicate data if the receiving party does not analyze it in any way. To &lt;emph&gt;know&lt;/emph&gt; what given data communicates/represents/names is to be able to do something reasonable with the data, i.e., you want to perform some operations on the data. So this is quite pragmatic, really.

To give you an example (that is essentially the same as what I wrote above): suppose we are two banks that communicate credit card numbers to each other. We would like to agree on a protocol which allows us to &quot;feed the input&quot; and &quot;read the output&quot; but we impose no requirement on what we should be able to do with the credit card numbers. Then the following (bizarre) protocol is ok: whenever you want to communicate a credit-card number to me, just send me the string &quot;hi&quot;. You have fed the input and I have read the output.

As soon as we want to do something with the credit card numbers, this protocol will suck. And that is the whole point of my post: first figure out what it is that you want to do (such as &quot;I want to be able to tell the digits of the credit-card number&quot;), &lt;em&gt;then&lt;/em&gt; you choose a representation.

You also ask about sufficient conditions that make a representation acceptable. This is a question that was studied by various people. For example, in Type Two Computation, &quot;good representations&quot; are characterized topologically and go under the name &lt;em&gt;admissible&lt;/em&gt;. Another possibility is to express the abstract mathematical properties that characterize your data and then compute the representation from that using the realizability interpretation of logic and type theory. That is what &lt;a href=&quot;/rz/&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;RZ&lt;/a&gt; does.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Kaveh: it is meaningless to communicate data if the receiving party does not analyze it in any way. To <emph>know</emph> what given data communicates/represents/names is to be able to do something reasonable with the data, i.e., you want to perform some operations on the data. So this is quite pragmatic, really.</p>
<p>To give you an example (that is essentially the same as what I wrote above): suppose we are two banks that communicate credit card numbers to each other. We would like to agree on a protocol which allows us to &#8220;feed the input&#8221; and &#8220;read the output&#8221; but we impose no requirement on what we should be able to do with the credit card numbers. Then the following (bizarre) protocol is ok: whenever you want to communicate a credit-card number to me, just send me the string &#8220;hi&#8221;. You have fed the input and I have read the output.</p>
<p>As soon as we want to do something with the credit card numbers, this protocol will suck. And that is the whole point of my post: first figure out what it is that you want to do (such as &#8220;I want to be able to tell the digits of the credit-card number&#8221;), <em>then</em> you choose a representation.</p>
<p>You also ask about sufficient conditions that make a representation acceptable. This is a question that was studied by various people. For example, in Type Two Computation, &#8220;good representations&#8221; are characterized topologically and go under the name <em>admissible</em>. Another possibility is to express the abstract mathematical properties that characterize your data and then compute the representation from that using the realizability interpretation of logic and type theory. That is what <a href="/rz/" rel="nofollow">RZ</a> does.</p>
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