<?xml version="1.0" encoding="UTF-8"?><!-- generator="wordpress/2.3.3" -->
<rss version="2.0"
	xmlns:content="http://purl.org/rss/1.0/modules/content/"
	xmlns:dc="http://purl.org/dc/elements/1.1/"
	>
<channel>
	<title>Comments on: First Steps in Synthetic Computability Theory (Fischbachau)</title>
	<link>http://math.andrej.com/2005/09/18/first-steps-in-synthetic-computability-theory-fischbachau/</link>
	<description>Mathematics for computers</description>
	<pubDate>Wed, 20 Aug 2008 11:50:27 +0000</pubDate>
	<generator>http://wordpress.org/?v=2.3.3</generator>
		<item>
		<title>By: Andrej Bauer</title>
		<link>http://math.andrej.com/2005/09/18/first-steps-in-synthetic-computability-theory-fischbachau/#comment-7818</link>
		<dc:creator>Andrej Bauer</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 06 Jun 2008 05:44:47 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid>http://math.andrej.com/2005/09/18/first-steps-in-synthetic-computability-theory-fischbachau/#comment-7818</guid>
		<description>You are absolutely correct. This is a good constructive proof that there exists a non-r.e. subset of N. I have no idea what I was thinking when I wrote my comment. As you noticed, we need to make the statement stronger: "Prove that there is a function `NN -&gt; {0,1}` (defined &lt;em&gt;everywhere&lt;/em&gt; on `NN`!) which is not computed by any Turing machine". In your proof, pinpoint the use of classical logic. (Note: it is possible to avoid classical logic in this case by using non-classical Brouwerian axioms. But you cannot prove the statement straight in constructive mathematics because constructive mathematics is consistent with Formalized Church's Thesis.)</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>You are absolutely correct. This is a good constructive proof that there exists a non-r.e. subset of N. I have no idea what I was thinking when I wrote my comment. As you noticed, we need to make the statement stronger: &#8220;Prove that there is a function `NN -> {0,1}` (defined <em>everywhere</em> on `NN`!) which is not computed by any Turing machine&#8221;. In your proof, pinpoint the use of classical logic. (Note: it is possible to avoid classical logic in this case by using non-classical Brouwerian axioms. But you cannot prove the statement straight in constructive mathematics because constructive mathematics is consistent with Formalized Church&#8217;s Thesis.)</p>
]]></content:encoded>
	</item>
	<item>
		<title>By: Sridhar Ramesh</title>
		<link>http://math.andrej.com/2005/09/18/first-steps-in-synthetic-computability-theory-fischbachau/#comment-7815</link>
		<dc:creator>Sridhar Ramesh</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 06 Jun 2008 00:26:15 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid>http://math.andrej.com/2005/09/18/first-steps-in-synthetic-computability-theory-fischbachau/#comment-7815</guid>
		<description>(Sorry, I know this is a very old comment to reply to, but it caught my eye)

Did you mean to say "prove there exists an element of 2^N which is not recursively enumerable" instead, or have some particular constructive system in mind more restrictive than intuitionistic logic? To be explicit, it seems to me the following serves as an intuitionistically acceptable proof that there exists a non-r.e. subset of N:

Let Halt(a, b) mean that the program coded by a halts on input b. Consider {x &#124; ~Halt(x, x)}. If this were r.e. (i.e., semidecidable), then there would be some p such that Halt(p, x) is equivalent to ~Halt(x, x) for all x. But then, Halt(p, p) would be equivalent to ~Halt(p, p), a contradiction (even intuitionistically). Thus, we can conclude, {x &#124; ~Halt(x, x)} is non-r.e.

The only thing which we wouldn't be able to do intuitionistically, it seems to me, is go on to conclude that this set has a 2-valued characteristic function. I'm almost certain you just made a small typo, but just in case not, have I missed some flaw in the above ostensibly constructive proof?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>(Sorry, I know this is a very old comment to reply to, but it caught my eye)</p>
<p>Did you mean to say &#8220;prove there exists an element of 2^N which is not recursively enumerable&#8221; instead, or have some particular constructive system in mind more restrictive than intuitionistic logic? To be explicit, it seems to me the following serves as an intuitionistically acceptable proof that there exists a non-r.e. subset of N:</p>
<p>Let Halt(a, b) mean that the program coded by a halts on input b. Consider {x | ~Halt(x, x)}. If this were r.e. (i.e., semidecidable), then there would be some p such that Halt(p, x) is equivalent to ~Halt(x, x) for all x. But then, Halt(p, p) would be equivalent to ~Halt(p, p), a contradiction (even intuitionistically). Thus, we can conclude, {x | ~Halt(x, x)} is non-r.e.</p>
<p>The only thing which we wouldn&#8217;t be able to do intuitionistically, it seems to me, is go on to conclude that this set has a 2-valued characteristic function. I&#8217;m almost certain you just made a small typo, but just in case not, have I missed some flaw in the above ostensibly constructive proof?</p>
]]></content:encoded>
	</item>
	<item>
		<title>By: Andrej Bauer</title>
		<link>http://math.andrej.com/2005/09/18/first-steps-in-synthetic-computability-theory-fischbachau/#comment-50</link>
		<dc:creator>Andrej Bauer</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 26 Nov 2005 09:55:21 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid>http://math.andrej.com/2005/09/18/first-steps-in-synthetic-computability-theory-fischbachau/#comment-50</guid>
		<description>Deprogramming oneself from classical logic is not easy. In my experience it takes a couple of years. As for an introductory text in constructive logic, I am not sure what to recommend. For example, Troelstra and van Dalens "Constructivism in Mathematics" is very exhaustive and explains well the ideas, but is written by logicians for logicians. Or you might try Beeson's book. Bishop and Bridges "Constructive Analysis" is another option--it is after all the constructivist bible. But they simply &lt;em&gt;do&lt;/em&gt; constructive mathematics, without explaining much how to do it. In fact, this may be the best approach: just jump into the constructivist swimming pool and hope there is water in it.

Perhaps the following exercise will help: prove that there exists a subset of `NN` which is not recursively enumerable. Precisely where did you use classical logic in that proof? Probably it was something like "either `n in W_n` or not." Now try proving it without this step (you will fail). Welcome to constructive mathematics.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Deprogramming oneself from classical logic is not easy. In my experience it takes a couple of years. As for an introductory text in constructive logic, I am not sure what to recommend. For example, Troelstra and van Dalens &#8220;Constructivism in Mathematics&#8221; is very exhaustive and explains well the ideas, but is written by logicians for logicians. Or you might try Beeson&#8217;s book. Bishop and Bridges &#8220;Constructive Analysis&#8221; is another option&#8211;it is after all the constructivist bible. But they simply <em>do</em> constructive mathematics, without explaining much how to do it. In fact, this may be the best approach: just jump into the constructivist swimming pool and hope there is water in it.</p>
<p>Perhaps the following exercise will help: prove that there exists a subset of `NN` which is not recursively enumerable. Precisely where did you use classical logic in that proof? Probably it was something like &#8220;either `n in W_n` or not.&#8221; Now try proving it without this step (you will fail). Welcome to constructive mathematics.</p>
]]></content:encoded>
	</item>
	<item>
		<title>By: kurtvanetten</title>
		<link>http://math.andrej.com/2005/09/18/first-steps-in-synthetic-computability-theory-fischbachau/#comment-49</link>
		<dc:creator>kurtvanetten</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 25 Nov 2005 16:15:58 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid>http://math.andrej.com/2005/09/18/first-steps-in-synthetic-computability-theory-fischbachau/#comment-49</guid>
		<description>Thanks for your response.  I'm having a hard time wrapping my mind around this.  Since I understand classical computability theory (or at I think I do; I'm starting to have doubts), my difficulty must come from not knowing constructive mathematics/intuitionistic logic.  Could you recommend a tutorial or a text (at a beginner's level) that will get me started?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Thanks for your response.  I&#8217;m having a hard time wrapping my mind around this.  Since I understand classical computability theory (or at I think I do; I&#8217;m starting to have doubts), my difficulty must come from not knowing constructive mathematics/intuitionistic logic.  Could you recommend a tutorial or a text (at a beginner&#8217;s level) that will get me started?</p>
]]></content:encoded>
	</item>
	<item>
		<title>By: Andrej Bauer</title>
		<link>http://math.andrej.com/2005/09/18/first-steps-in-synthetic-computability-theory-fischbachau/#comment-48</link>
		<dc:creator>Andrej Bauer</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 25 Nov 2005 10:43:48 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid>http://math.andrej.com/2005/09/18/first-steps-in-synthetic-computability-theory-fischbachau/#comment-48</guid>
		<description>By "elegant" I mean "conceptually elegant", although I do think there is also a slight (but ultimately insignificant) difference in notation. It is elegant to think of concepts from computability theory as just "ordinary" concepts from set theory and topology, i.e., explicit mention of computability is not necesasry. You should feel like someone who has always programmed in Cobol trying to understand prolog, really. That would be a comparable shift in thinking.

The background needed to understand this, I suspect, is first of all familiarity with classical computability theory, as this is what we're trying to get at. Then you would also need some familiarity with constructive mathematics.

Your second question, whether a similar theory may be developed using classical logic, is somewhat misguided. &lt;em&gt;If&lt;/em&gt; we want to have a synthetic approach to computability based on the Axiom of Enumerability, &lt;em&gt;then&lt;/em&gt; it &lt;em&gt;follows&lt;/em&gt; that logic is non-classical (see theorem in the notes which states that the Axiom of Enumerability implies that the Law of Excluded Middle is false). I cannot &lt;em&gt;choose&lt;/em&gt; logic here, so the answer to your question is "no", we cannot do the same thing using classical logic. Many people seem to think that mathematics is done in the following order: (1) pick logic (classical or intuitionistic), then (2) do mathematics using the chosen logic. This is not always possible as your choice of mathematical topic may force you to choose a particular logic. For example, you might want to consider an axiom which is inconsistent with classical logic.

I certainly did not ask "How can I do computability theory in intuitionistic logic?" Instead I asked: "The effective topos is a mathematical universe (a model of a certain kind of set theory) which has computability built in. Therefore, it must be ready-made for an abstract treatment of computability theory. What sort of thing does a mathematician who lives in this universe believe in?" (Note: a mathematician who lives in a topos does not see how the topos is constructed. The building blocks of the topos, which to us on the outside look like complicated structures involving Turing machines, look like ordinary sets and functions to him.) As is well known to specialists in this area of reasearch, the answer &lt;em&gt;turnes out&lt;/em&gt; to be that mathematicians inside the effective topos happen to believe in the Axiom of Enumerability and happen to disbelieve the Law of Excluded Middle, and that things they say about sets mean to us something about computability.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>By &#8220;elegant&#8221; I mean &#8220;conceptually elegant&#8221;, although I do think there is also a slight (but ultimately insignificant) difference in notation. It is elegant to think of concepts from computability theory as just &#8220;ordinary&#8221; concepts from set theory and topology, i.e., explicit mention of computability is not necesasry. You should feel like someone who has always programmed in Cobol trying to understand prolog, really. That would be a comparable shift in thinking.</p>
<p>The background needed to understand this, I suspect, is first of all familiarity with classical computability theory, as this is what we&#8217;re trying to get at. Then you would also need some familiarity with constructive mathematics.</p>
<p>Your second question, whether a similar theory may be developed using classical logic, is somewhat misguided. <em>If</em> we want to have a synthetic approach to computability based on the Axiom of Enumerability, <em>then</em> it <em>follows</em> that logic is non-classical (see theorem in the notes which states that the Axiom of Enumerability implies that the Law of Excluded Middle is false). I cannot <em>choose</em> logic here, so the answer to your question is &#8220;no&#8221;, we cannot do the same thing using classical logic. Many people seem to think that mathematics is done in the following order: (1) pick logic (classical or intuitionistic), then (2) do mathematics using the chosen logic. This is not always possible as your choice of mathematical topic may force you to choose a particular logic. For example, you might want to consider an axiom which is inconsistent with classical logic.</p>
<p>I certainly did not ask &#8220;How can I do computability theory in intuitionistic logic?&#8221; Instead I asked: &#8220;The effective topos is a mathematical universe (a model of a certain kind of set theory) which has computability built in. Therefore, it must be ready-made for an abstract treatment of computability theory. What sort of thing does a mathematician who lives in this universe believe in?&#8221; (Note: a mathematician who lives in a topos does not see how the topos is constructed. The building blocks of the topos, which to us on the outside look like complicated structures involving Turing machines, look like ordinary sets and functions to him.) As is well known to specialists in this area of reasearch, the answer <em>turnes out</em> to be that mathematicians inside the effective topos happen to believe in the Axiom of Enumerability and happen to disbelieve the Law of Excluded Middle, and that things they say about sets mean to us something about computability.</p>
]]></content:encoded>
	</item>
</channel>
</rss>
